One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.

The best post in whole topic. Pure truth!

Price is not a balancing factor the way miners seem to think it is.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11888211

This 100b ratting ship got killed by a gang worth not more than 4-5b Isk. And that gang didn't lose anything significant.

EDIT: I want all 3 to be useful in all areas of space. I'm fine giving the Skiff a WCS bonus, but I want it to be a viable HS ship as well.

Where did I say the Skiff should be a viable gank target?

At this point you're not even pretending to try to add to the conversation.

Where did I say any of that? Link where I said I'd unsub.

I'm in SniggWaffe down in Delve (FWST-8 II - Blood Raiders Logistic Support). How often do you think I get easy targets there?

Ganking's a little side project that I do on occasion because I find it amusing.

So now the Blood Raiders NPC Corp are part of the CFC? Really?

By the way, Look at DOTLAN. GSF doesn't hold any Sov in Delve.

Nope. And when did the Blood Raiders join the CFC, as you claim?

You don't know who the Blood Raiders are, do you?

And yet you think they're part of the CFC.

He probably also thinks Rogue Drones are part of the DRF.

Fair enough.

With the SISI dump as it stands now,

The Hulk has the best yield, a flimsy tank, and requires hauling support to be efficient.
The Mackinaw has a cavernous Ore bay, a fantastic tank,* and a better yield than the Skiff.
The Skiff has a very large Ore bay, a tank that is no more effective than the Mack's,* and the worst yield.

*Once you have enough tank that it is significantly unprofitable to gank you (the Mack would cost ~60m to gank with 4 T2 catalysts with these stats, I think), extra tank doesn't really matter. Miners will not be faced with any significant threat of ganks in a Mack, so the Skiff is useless.

I think having 2/3 Exhumers being viable is an improvement. But the goal is 3/3 and that goal is in sight.

Cut the Mack's tank to that of a Hulk (Solo Boat != AFK boat)
Cut the Skiff's Ore bay to that of a Hulks (otherwise nobody will use the Mack). Give the Skiff a WCS bonus to give it some semblance of survivability in low/null (I mainly propose this because it doesn't really matter, but the miners, they likes the idea).

1. I wouldn't do an AFK friendly mining ship. The Mack is a Solo mining ship, not an AFK one.

2. That's not Solo mining. There's a whole second ship with you. The Mack is designed for people who don't have an Alt/Friend with a Hauler of some kind. You are describing a Fleet situation, which is favors the Hulk for extra yield.

Where did I say the Mack should have its Ore bay reduced?

The Mack is designed for Mining unsupported by a Hauler. The Orca is Hauler support, whether you call it solo or otherwise.

AFK Mining without Risk is a terrible idea. At the moment, the SISI Mack has enough tank to do that, meaning that the Skiff has no role.

You should not be able to make Isk AFK without risk. The AFK Sentryboat in a PLEX ("AFK" Mission ships are nowhere near as AFK as Ice mining in the new Mack is) make less Isk/hr than a Mack, and will lose several hours of profit if he gets bumped away from his sentries.

The Mack and Hulk can do that fine.

Especially the Mack.

I'm talking about the Dead Drones costing him replacement cash. Not missing cycles.

Again, making ISK AFK without risk is bad game design. The Sentryboat makes a pittance compared to the AFK Mack (current SISI build) and runs the risk of losing money on the project if he gets bumped in the first few hours of the session.

Yes. I know what AFK means. "AFK" Mission ships allow you to alt-tab away for a little bit, but you have to keep an eye out for spawns. They don't allow you to actually leave your computer without risk.

The current SISI Mack build costs too much to gank, so it won't be ganked, so sitting it in an Ice belt and wandering away for 45m at a time is perfectly viable and safe. That's not good game design.

How much Isk will he lose? The AFK Plexing boat loses ~5m ISK in drones if he gets bumped. And he doesn't make as much isk as the Mack pilot in the first place. 5m Isk represents like an hour of AFK Plexing income to get back up to even.

Who would?

Also, in a discussion of AFK income, how did this come up?

Where in the world did I say that? Quote and Link.

You need at least 2 meta fit Catalysts to kill an untanked Hulk, so you can't gank at all with one character in a meta fit catalyst.

Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all.

I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role.

It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless.

If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role.

It's not useless. The Skiff is only useless because the buffs to the Hulk and Mack have made it irrelevant.

As for the newb ship comment, since it's in quotation marks, Link where I said that. Or stop lying.

It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably.

How many rats deal omni damage?

Sleepers don't respawn once you kill them. If you're expecting a Hulk to do the initial clearance of a WH Grav site, I really can't help you.

Anyway, now we have a Miner upset that his Hulk can't tank Sleepers.